I believe such a law such be enacted in Jharkhand as soon as possible since the state is plagued by unethical conversions of the poor.



Venkitesh



Conversion law violation is a criminal offence

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Ahmedabad/Conversion_law_violation_is_a_criminal_offence/articleshow/2984048.cms



From now on, anyone wishing to convert will have to tell the government why they were doing it and for how long they had been following the religion which they were renouncing, failing which, they will be declared offenders and prosecuted under criminal laws.



Forced conversion could land those responsible a three-year jail term. This clause is contained in the rules of the anti-conversion law which came into effect on April 1.



The new law is called Gujarat Freedom of Religion Act, 2003, and took five years to be implemented because of the failure of the state government to come up with rules on the kind of information to be provided when applying for permission to convert to any religion.



The Bill confirms that Jainism and Buddhism are not sub-sects of Hinduism. The rules have been published in the Gujarat government gazette.



The rules make it obligatory for a priest seeking to convert someone from one religion to another to take prior permission of the district magistrate in order to avoid police action.



The priest, in fact, will have to sign a detailed form providing personal information on the person whom she/he wishes to convert, whether the one sought to be converted is a minor, a member of Scheduled Caste or Tribe, her/his marital status, occupation and monthly income.



Anyone willing to convert will have to apply to the district magistrate a month before the rituals and give details on the place of conversion, time and reason.



After getting converted, the person will have to obligatorily provide information within 10 days on the rites to the district magistrate, reason for conversion, the name of the priest who has carried out the ritual and full details of the persons who took part in the ceremony.



The district magistrate will have to send a quarterly report to the government listing the number of applications for prior permission, comparative statistics of the earlier quarter, reasons for granting or not granting permission, number of conversions, and number of actions against offenders.







Hope somebody prevents the Dalai Lama, Rajneesh and Mahesh Yogi’s followers from entering Gujarat!

Now what will we do if Venki converts Gladson to Jainism? Will they arrest Gladson or Venki?

Prabir Chatterjee









Its as simple as this, each one mind your own business and let Venki and Gladson go hand in hand and stand where ever they have to if they want to do what ever they wish with their own lives.

BARBARA ALI









It’s not the matter of Gladson or Venki. The real matter is the state is becoming the violator human rights in the name of freedom of religion and so on. How can the State dictate which religion I should follow, profess or decline?

Father of the Nation, Mahatma Gandhi had very clear ideas about it. He said that I’m a sanatan Hindu and it’s my personal matter therefore the state should not dictate my religion. We have the right to freedom of religion as the fundamental rights guaranteed by the Constitution of India under Article 25 and the state is duty bound to ensure these rights. If the state decides about whom I should believe, what I should wear and so on then where my freedom is?

When a tribal or dalit becomes Christian, Muslim or Budhist people of the so-called main stream of the society lose their sleep but why people do not raise any question when a Sharma, Verma, Mishra and list goes on accept/change their religion.

Another thing is when a tribal becomes Christian, Muslim or Budhist so-called people call it “conversion” but when the same fellow becomes ‘Hindu’ then they call it ‘Ghar Vapsi’. what a wonderful definition of conversion we have.

This is nothing than the power politics. The major reason is that the Tribals and Dalits are challenging the status quo as a result the Brahmins have already lost their control in the politics and now they are also going to lose their social control, which they are not able to digest therefore they blame in many ways to stop the social change process. But nothing is going to work we will bring about change in the society at any cost. I know that many people feel uncomfortable in these issues therefore it must be stopped but sometimes I surprise that inspite of many request why do people put these materials in the group. I don’t have any problem if people want to discuss let’s discuss it, otherwise I would request to the Moderater please don’t pass any matter like this, which is meaningless to discuss in the forum.

Gladson







Well I am not a politician: I hate politicians.

From my basic general knowledge the Indian constitution is based on British constitution, which

is a western/christian based constitution, therefore contrarary to Hindutvas constitution.

As far as my understanding goes, it is NOT illegal/criminal to convert christians back to

Hindutva, but criminal to convert adivasis/tribals/ into Christianity.

Advocate Ashutoshjee… Can you throw some light on this and educate the forum on the right of an individual to practice a religion based on the human right issue?

William Kisku









As for my personal opinion any humans living in this world should be given

right to practice any religion they want. It has been happening through out the world:



Conversions



What’s wrong in Conversions, be it to Hinduism, to Christianity, to Islam,

to Buddhism.



Anyone want to have debate on why conversions should not be allowed in a secular country like India?



Sachi









Try converting a Muslim, The next day your dead body will be found. Hindoos are good people that people trying to convert are still alive. They should thank Jesus that they deal with Hindus.



Anyway Jesus couldn’t help himself, what the hell he will help the poor Christians…



Vikash.







Well said. It is a monumental failure on the part of the government that they could not protect the tribals from alien religions which totally cuts them off from their traditions, cultures, ancestors, gods and beliefs and way of worship.



Once you lose your religion, you lose the spiritual connection to your land which is transferred to far away Jerusalem or Mecca as the case may be. The land is like a mother. It nurtures us from life to death. Local religions and beliefs highly regard the local devatas. Every attempt should be made to safeguard tribal gods, cultures and beliefs.



Venkitesh







Once you loose your religion, your false conscious, you loose your chains.



Mishra Ish







Thats probably the most ignorant statement I have ever heard. Jesus could not help himself………….how many Hindu gods are alive, Vikash? Sorry if I am rude.

Jesus could not help himself but he helped a lot of people. Your young immature mind , Vikash,will find that very difficult to comprehend mate. Try to become a better Hindu first , before you accuse others of converting.Have you ever bought lunch for a poor adivasi or a poor Hindu for that matter? That wud be too much to expect from a bitter person like you.People living in glass house should not……………….



Isaac Verghese







I believe enough time has been spent on the same issue by various interested members. This has not served any one or any purpose but has probably created division in the group. The religion and belief of any faith is a spiritual and very personal thing and should be left as it is.



I would urge all members to move on and talk about more urgent issues facing the people of India in general and of Jharkhand Region in particular.



Dhuni







E.g. Lord Vishnu descended on earth as Rama’s incarnation. The point is why do you emphasize, Jesus died so that he can save others. WE never hear a statement that Krishna, or Rama died so that they can save us. It is kind of contradictory. Our gods are eternal. Only a spark of them comes to earth as Rama, Krishna for a particular purpose. In fact all of us are sparks of god, our creator.



Further, pray tell me .. what does feeding a poor have to do with religion. Shame on those rice missionaries who convert the poor by feeding them. This is the worst type of exploitation. Destroying their traditional religion.



If christianity is so great .. why are American Indians in USA, South Africa the poorest and most exploited. Why are the Filippins the poorest in south east Asia. Why are so many Christian countries in Africa the poorest of the poor. Why christian missionaries do not open schools and feed hte poor there?



Venkat







How come none of the converts are complaining? If they are happy, what is your problem, venkat. Why are you interested in whats boiling in others pot.Why don’t you just mind you own business? U speak as if hordes of converts landed up in your door step asking for succour- ” help me venkat I am being crucified by these Christian missionaries “

If you think you follow a superior religion and have the spiritual courage, try reconverting one. Make sure you donot get converted yourself. I doubt if you will be able to reconvert even one with or without using “Rice” (Money).



If you donot understand the connection between feeding the poor and religion mate, then it speaks volumes about your spirituality. You are worse than the Rice missionaries. Venkat you live up to this slogan “Moo mein Ram bhagal mein chura”



Isaac







I feel conversion by greed, alluration or force is bad and it should not be practiced or preached on a platform like that of Jharkhand where Sarnas among tribal too constitute a majority not to talk of whole Hindus.



Dr. Dhanakar Thakur







Why are you falling all into the rhetorical trap set up by these fanatics? Stop responding to them - you people are giving them too much importance. Don’t pay attention to these mentally retarded idiots who see everything from the lens of their accursed religious ideology. Jharkhand has more serious problems to attend to.



Ven calls me a pro-christian person - I am an agnostic - and plague on fundamentalists of all types- fascist hindutvavadis, rapturous christian, wahbabi islamists- all those who think that they and they only have the last “word” and the way to “god”. If it was upto them the world would be awash in blood of innocents. Actually they are pretty successful in achieving this- look at Iraq (thanks to the rapture inclined Bush). Or Gujarat (Modi’s tough love for muslims) or Afghanistan (Muslim fundamentalism vs. christian crusaders). Or Kashmir turned from a struggle over nationality to a Jihadi war against India. Count their acheivement in terms of children slaughtered, women raped and killed. Let us fight some more- kill some more in the name of religion and caste and creed. I don’t like missionaries - neither the christian types nor the Hindu types - both have destroyed cultures of adivasies. You will either find Hanumans and Ganesh or you will find cross in adibasi areas - sickening cultural imperialism and erasing of tribal identity and culture.



When the whole world is falling around our heads- with the food price rise and long term global warming and starvation and destitution - only thing these people are bothered about is the spiritual health of the tribals. That is because they have all the comfort and good life at the cost of the same tribals and poor - and need to divide them to be able to rule them with ease without fear of retribution. That is the reason why RSS is so active in tribal and backward areas- because it sees a united dalit-tribal- poor front as the greatest threat to brahminical dominance in the country. Divide and rule- make them fight and watch the fun. Hindu vs. muslims- hindu vs. christians. Aag lagao aur hath seko - old ruling class funda.



And Ven, you have had your RSS people in power in Jharkhand - why don’t you try and pass an anti-conversion law instead of bothering this listserve with your crap.



Regards



Nachiketa









Dear Nachiketa,



I live in Jharkhand and I feel if anybody talks for conversion in Jharkhand he/she is not a “mentally retarded idiot” whether one talks for or against that.



True, Jharkhand has more serious problems to attend to but if one talks on it he/she should be ready to listen to the other view point as well.



Hindus never say they only have the last “word” and the way to “god” and that others say is the root of maladies and conversion and its opposition.



Equating Afganistan with Gujarat or Kashmir is ridiculous. If there would not have been Christian missionaries the Hindu types would not have evolved.



Equating both have destring cultures of Adivasis in India is wrong.



Hanumans Himself was an Adivasi born at Anjan village near Toto Gumla,



There is nothing as cultural imperialism and erasing of tribal identity and culture.



Why anybody is more serious for evangelical talks than talking on the food price rise and long term global warming and starvation and destitution?



If RSS is so active in tribal and backward areas- to counteract Missionaries with service and educational facilities what harm in that?



Let people choose their way.



An united dalit-tribal- poor front if happen would be a Hindu front abd where is the Brahminical dominance in the country?? It had never been- brahmins hardly ruled any oart of the country.



Divide and rule- has partitioned India, Whether RSS people in power in Jharkhand or anywhere or not an anti-conversion law must be strengthened..



Regards



Dr. Dhanakar Thakur









Ideally why can’t people leave religion in their home, the private domain. Why convert?

I have no interest in converting anybody. But I would like to ensure my tolerance is not taken advantage of.



I think Tribals will be happy with development and with the ability to maintain their unique traditions and culture. Unfortunately there are elements which combine religion to development which is were the problem arises. The khandamal riots in Orissa show how dangerous and divisive it is.



Let us work to take out religion from the public sphere. To each his own.



Venkat









Whether one likes it or not, Muslim religion is now THE fastest growing religion IN THE WORLD….. to my knowledge without any evidence of coercion. These people do not have adivasis in Jharkhand as targets. This is despite the 9/11 event and media linking this carnage to this religion. ( Unless some one out there can give me some reliable data.)



Christianity has spread around the globe because of the life style they ( the believers) project rather than the BIBLICAL truth itself. At the same time Christianity has not achieved the global religion status because of the lifestyle some of the Christians

project!



So wake up people, if you want to convert people to your religion from any other religion, it is not your, Vedas or Qurans or Bible for that matter which will convert people. It is your lifestyle you project at your personal level.



Mother Theresa in Kolkata was not popular because she was preaching Christianity, but the life she lived, helping the destitute and downtrodden.



One must learn to walk the talk, not just talk ( or write in the forum, and criticise rest of the world with a jaundiced view.)



William Kisku







Venkat yr voice is too feeble mate. Zero deciblels.You donot know the difference between exercising your rights and complaining like a small kid.U are kid who has just identified himself with a new toy -Conversion. You are afraid someone might snatch that new toy from you because you identofy yourself with this new toy.. Its not as if you are genuinely interested in “Indic people”The same people who you so fondly call”My indic people” will throw you out if you try to reconvert them.



Ignorant upstarts like you, venkat, make life very entertaining for the rest of us intelligent.



Isaac







I do agree with Dr. Dhuni. There are lots of relevant issues like starvation death of a Paharia tribe women in Dumka district, non-supply of mid day meal in schools of Jharkhand, encounter of Naxalsin Dumka which need to be discussed.



Nalini





Source: http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/Jharkhand/message/1718





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